Consciousness and Conscience

Nyc: Conscience and Consciousness could have easily been plugged in for Ethics and Morals.

But, at a minimum, that would have completely lost 75% of the Mass Audience that that engineered and ghost-written piece of populist tripe was aiming to reach.

William: Nyc, we all have consciousness unless we are unconscious (is being asleep technically unconscious?)… anyway, consciousness doesn’t mean much. Conscience means something if you heed it. I guess if you never listen to it it just goes away on it’s own. Conscience is that little voice in your head which doesn’t seem to be your own voice or mind and it is saying that if you do or don’t do certain things you will be sorry and regretful or you will feel guilt.

Nyc: By Consciousness, in addition to the Wakefulness that you mention, I mean Awareness of ones self and others and of what one’s impact, for good or ill, is on the world in which they live.

Combine that with what you wrote on Conscience and that’s a rather sturdy rack of Ethics and Morality to hang one’s hat on.

Dawn: are you kidding me???? consciousness is EVERYTHING. its the difference between acting in your own self interest and/or for the greater good.

consciousness is NOT just being awake, it is being aware, it is acting from a place of repsonsibility with conscience. consciousness is having a proper persepctive of yourself and the world you live in, as well as thoughtful action that takes that place in consideration BEFORE you act.

its the difference between be a self serving sociopath , a narcisist or a greedmonger and being a true leader of people.
and without consiousness Sonscienceness doesnt exist. you have to be conscious to have a conscience

consciousness is being aware of the conscience and acting upon it. killers know killing is wrong, they know it will get them in trouble and unless they are a sociopath they KNow they will feel bad about it later, but they become Unconscious when they value the ego or the part of their mind that tells them they will benefit from doing it more than any consequence would cost, so, they DONT think about it.

its in every religion, its freudian, its Jungian, its Kantian, in biblical terms they call it sleep. and it is what came from eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. its being aware of all of the aspects of yourself that you listed and acting afterwards according to what causes the least harm and does the most good, without thought of gain for yourself, but simply because it is the best possible action possible, for humanity.

according to genesis, we became LIKE GOD knowing good and evil. thats consciousness. knowing the impact of your actions BEFORE you commit them and acting using your consciousness in spite of what the ego tells you to do, because its the right thing to do.

William: I am not kidding. In the 1970s Robert Ornstein and Charles Tart were two leading writers on the psychology of consciousness. Tart went into ordinary states of consciousness and altered states of consciousness. For most people conscious is simply the opposite of unconscious and it means you can answer questions like what year is it and who is President. With all sorts of New Age movements like Krishna Consciousness and Transcendental meditation the world consciousness has come to have a kind of mystic significance like “if I pluck a flower than a distant star is affected.”

Dawn: well there are for sure different levels of consciousness, in the 70s they didnt think much about the impact of their actions on people of other nations, but now especially with facebook and the internet our paradigm has shifter, it has grown exponentially, so there is alot more to be aware OF, it changes completely both the consciousness, and the conscience of any person aware enough to think.

I can give you an example of the difference that will be obvious to you, have you ever done some sort of tedius work, or have you ever been driving home on a route that you always take, and while you dont really realize that your consciousness LEFT you at some point, suddenly you realize, I don t remember making that turn, or doing that specific task? you arent really aware of NOT being conscious but you certainly realize you werent conscious when you Become conscious again. thats your consciousness returning to you.

like temple grandin asked, where does it go? that is surely what happens to you when you die. it just leaves you the body that you are identified with, you are no longer identified with, that doesnt mean the energy or awareness that is you, is no more. energy cannot be created or destroyed only changed.

hypnosis is another state of consciousness, as is rem sleep,some part of you is registerring perception because you dream.

you know the saying I think therefore I am, thats BS. I am not the thinking, I am the awareness that I am thinking, and thats a completely different thing. we are as humans supposed to be masterring the consciousness that is us, we are supposed to be controlling our mental dialogue but instead we teach people that the mental dialogue that is constantly there means your crazy if you acknoeldge it so people stay unconscious. its the part of you that is aware that you think thats the real consciousness thats you, and thats the energy that cant be created or destroyed.

I think of it like this, theres a stream of vibrations that we exist IN, like a stream of water, and we vibrate at any given time at either the same pace, that moves us along, or we exist at a different pace than whats around us. when that happens there is a diruption in our existance that we experience as either anger, fear, love, happiness relative to the relationship between the vibrations that are us and the vibrations of the world around us. we can alter and change the world around us with our vibrations, and we can ultimately through masterring our inner dialogue and our senses and our emotions manipulate that energy to work for us, or we can roil against it and problems happen.

revolution MUST be the majority of the people vibrating at a pace that exceeeds the vibration of the norm. therefore it changes the pace of the norm. havoc happens when there are many people vibrating at rates that are inconsistent with each other and with the norm. so we get great upheaval which causes anger fear shame.

thats the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, its being able to correlate what is with what we put out, and changing it for the greater good. the reason Obama is so powerful is because we all sense his strength, we cognize strength because we sense that vibrational power in his countenance. thats why we were drawn to him, and why the world was drawn to him, he doesnt know his own power because he doesnt put his self first. and we sense that too, his moral compass ( another reference we never actually think about that points to the power of the energy vibrations that we are). its seriously time for us to stop talking about whats wrong, and start talking about How it should be. we need to make our government what we know it should be, he is our go to man, but we need to first congnize what we want, then get his attention and plead our case. then he can make the changes we WANT and know we should have.

and by the way the point in which the energy vibration that IS us impacts with the energy that IS the energy of the rest of the world, is NOW, it is time manifest here and now, jesus also said the kingdom of heaven is at hand, and he meant that we manifest the world as it is, and we do it constantly in the NOW; and thats KANT

Nyc: I totally ♥ the version of Consciousness that’s presented in the second Terminator movie at the end of the 1st Act.

Easily one of the best expressions of what it is that I’ve ever seen or heard in any medium.

It’s the scene in the car when the 2 Connors, mother and son, and the Protector machine have for the first time *finally* gotten cleanly away from both the malicious Terminator and the authorities that have been relentlessly on their tail.

It’s the middle of the night out, in the middle of nowhere and they’re moving even further into the darkness, at a high rate of speed in the car they’re driving in, that, btw, does *not* have its night-lights on.

Baffled Sara Connor looks at the Terminator quizzically and asks him if he can see anything on the dark road and he turns and tersely says to her…

“I see everything…”

And he most certainly does.

Something to aspire to in the drive towards maintaining one’s Consciousness, though, as King Solomon pointed out so plaintively in Ecclesiastes, it’s something that we humans will always fall short of being able to do 100% of the time, including all of our waking hours.

Dawn: would have to include the phrase Living with Intention which is One of MY favorite explanations of conscious living. conscious BEING is different than conscious action. IN this scenario the masses ideally are conscious Being while the leaders would be untilizing conscious action.

William: Kant may be totally wrong about space and time with regard to quantum and relativity so I wouldn’t run around shouting Kant like it is the be-all end-all of truth and wisdom. And whether Kant is right or wrong with respect to space and time, no one in this thread has the background in mathematics or physics to reconcile Kant to quantum. We all just repeat as hearsay what we have read elsewhere. 90% of the American voting public wouldn’t have the foggiest notion of what anyone in this thread is talking about so therefore these assertions of yours cannot have much real bearing on the daily life of the average citizen. Dawn, I seriously doubt that in your heart of hearts you can claim that you are sinless and have never done a wrong thing and yet you are conscious when you are awake to the same degree as the Dalai Lama or Billy Graham or Pope Benedict so you make yourself sound foolish to argue that conscience and consciousness are somehow connected and even if they ARE connected it doesn’t change the fact that everyone does mean, rotten, immoral or dishonest things at times in their life knowing full well at the very moment they act that they are doing something they shouldn’t. Even if you DID understand all these things at the level of someone like Kant I feel certain that you do some of the same contemptible things that everyone else does from time to time. I doubt that you float around on a cloud, your feet never touching the ground, with a glow of light surrounding your head. And as soon as I post this I am going to re-read the entire thread to see what other criticisms I can make.

@Nyc I doubt that you sit over there in Munich thinking about how “Awareness of ones self and others and of what one’s impact, for good or ill, is on the world in which they live.” Ha ha, go tell Wanda that this is what you have been thinking about all day. And then go tell your old landlady who makes you buy back Deutch Marks because she is too cheap to convert her washing machine to Euros.

Dawn wrote:
(begin quote)
Consciousness is EVERYTHING. its the difference between acting in your own self interest and/or for the greater good.

Consciousness is NOT just being awake, it is being aware, it is acting from a place of repsonsibility with conscience. consciousness is having a proper persepctive of yourself and the world you live in, as well as thoughtful action that takes that place in consideration BEFORE you act.
(end quote)

With all due respect, I think this is a lot of baloney for a number of reasons. There over 6 billion humans on this planet. If what Dawn said had any real bearing upon human existence then very few of those six billion humans would use tobacco or alcohol and there would not be a widespread AIDS/HIV crisis. Everyone who wakes up in the morning and starts walking around is conscious. They all do dumb, selfish dangerous things from time to time. I have actually spent time in Greek monasteries and Korean Buddhist monasteries and Hindu ashrams and those people in theory are supposed to be living on some higher level of spiritual consciousness. They ARE actually more spiritual and self aware than your average person in the street, but they are also completely human and fallible. They laugh at times, and get angry and feel sad.

On page one of Hobbes’s Leviathan he said “if people were angels there would be no need for government.” Well, Dawn, if what you say about consciousness and conscience had any REAL meaning or application in daily human existence then we would not have much need for governments or police or prisons.

I quite frankly do not understand how any educated person could make the statement Dawn made in all seriousness with a straight face. Therefore, I am assuming that Dawn is simply mocking us and speaks in jest.

And now I shall see what the Dalai Nyc of Toytown Munich has posted and then read all this nonsense for yet a third time.

Nyc, it is very simple. When we start believing our own BS then we are really deluded or delusional if you prefer. It is one thing to sell snake oil but it is quite another to buy it from yourself, take it, and expect that it is going to have some positive effect.

Point number TWO: Even if we speak with the tongues of angels, if what we say is irrelevant to more than half the people on the planet then what we say is merely the tinkling of bells and the sounding of brass cymbals (which is a very ancient way of saying BS.)

OK now with respect to vibrations (it took me a while to remember this and google) but vibrations goes all the way from Pantanjali’s vritti to the morphic resonance of Rupert Sheldrake …. but for all this… human nature is pretty much the same today as we see in Homer’s epic poems. Technology has changed but human nature remains the same.

Funny I said expressed the same exact sentiment to one of my Transhumanist/The Singularity Approacheth friends today.

I’ve been insanely dark, pessimistic and fatalistic lately, with a healthy heaping measure of righteous self-scorn over my life’s many blown opportunities thrown in for good measure and this person tried to cheer me up by offering me the prospect of an eternal life, provided I’m still around 50 years from now when the tech reaches that point where we humans can merge our consciousness with the machines, and/or keep our human bodies in a perfect physical state for Eons, and that I should ‘chin-up’ since in an eternal, or many thousand years life scenarios many more opportunities will inevitably come my way.

I turned that offer down flat because I figured the ones that are going to be around to enjoy the fruits of that tech are going embody the worst, not the best, characteristics of people today, and I had no desire to spend millennia being miserable with a self-selected group of the most miserable people on earth.

Sounds downright hellish to me.

And no opportunity in the world seems worth it to me. What, is some magical brand new food stuff, sexual position or intoxicating elixir going to come along that thats going to make putting up with all the day to day bullshit worth it?

Not very bloody well likely. The food’s gonna taste like chicken, I’ll get my rock’s off too soon, or not at all, and get accused of beng selfish, to boot, and whatever that potion, drug or drink may be, I’m sure that it’ll come with the equivalent hang-over.

Who needs any of that shit? Not me.

The first 2/3rds of my life are over now and the way I’m feeling I see no reason to extend that last third by so much as a picosecond and I plan to do nothing towards it from this point on.

What’s the point of that? Keep myself healthy only to inevitably get trapped in a body that’s going to get sick?

That’s the very definition of a pointless and futile endeavor, and I have enough self awareness and consciousness to know that I want no further part in it.

Nyc, what you said just now about your ennui with respect to life makes a lot more practical sense to me than all that Dawn has said. I am reminded of now the goddess Calypso offered Odysseus immortality but he refused.

I am also reminded of how the shade of Achilles said that it is better to live as a lowly servant on Earth than to be king of all the dead.

Dawn mentions Jesus in some of her posts. Now I see two enormous problems with bringing Jesus into the discussion, namely POVERTY AND WAR. Jesus and Moses BOTH say “the poor shall always be with you.” Jesus mentions it as an afterthought when he explains why the woman is anointing his feet with precious ointment. Moses mentions it as an afterthought when he forbids gleaning of the fields (which means to leave something for poor people and hungry animals.) Now the Old Testament Prophets hint in places that there will come an end to war, but the New Testament states that until the end of the world there will always be wars and rumors of war. So if all these things about consciousness and self-awareness have any real meaning then there should be some improvement in the general human condition and poverty and war should be eliminated.

Let us, for the sake of argument, assume that Dawn has indeed unlocked all the secrets of the universe and human existence and happiness then we must say to Dawn “what are you going to DO with all this wonderful knowledge?” How are you going to fix the problems in Africa or the problems in North Korea?

Now we have some simple wisdoms such as SMOKING CAUSES CANCER and UNPROTECTED SEX SPREADS HIV. These simple wisdoms can be comprehended by any person of sound mind in any culture. But the simple knowledge does stop people from using tobacco and does not slow the spread of HIV infection. So what in the world will all these obscure notions of vibrations and cosmic energy and consciousness and self-awareness do for the quality of six plus billion people on the planet?

Dawn: when did I say I had it down to a science??? you mean now that KANT and einstein have it down to a science?? why would I even have to run for office to change them???? The President we have is a conscious human being with a conscience.

and arent you the one that has it all figured out??? IM saying the person in charge needs to be aware of the process by which he makes decisions that impact all of the people, and from that, you come back with I have it all figured out and should run for office????? HUH????

NO, the President we have is a contitutional law professor, He is a politician as well., I AM NOT, so I have MY own job to do, and that entails holding my own representatives feet to the fire as I can assure you I do. I have to act in MY own conscious way in my own role. just like you do.

IF you have it all figured out why dont YOU run for office?? you seem to be saying IM wrong, therefore you clearly think you have knowledge that makes me wrong, therefore you have knowledge that I dont. YOU must surely know whats right since you can tell me that IM wrong.

I have read the philosophies of other people that ” have it figured out” John Maynard Keynes and Immanuel Kant, Jesus and Buddha, freud and JUNG. Jefferson and Locke, I am relaying what THEY have figured out as I interpreted it. since NYC said the same thing, and so did all of those other people including Iacoca I think we are right. I dont make any claim to anything as an original thought even. so How exactly do you get to, I have it all figured out so I should run for president, and I cant help but notice that even though NYC said the same thing I did you arent saying that to HIM. so whats that about???

did you NOT want a conversation??? was this just an exorcize in you making statements for us to read or what???

for the most part I agreed with you, so how is it, I am a know it all, but you arent??? and I happen to agree with you about a person being at least a little crazy for wanting to be President.

I personally admire Obama more than any other president in my lifetime. I still think American will go down the toilet bowel of history. I don’t believe these theories that Dawn offers are valid scientific or philosophical principles which will make any difference in the world. I doubt that Obama would really know or care to know what you are talking about. I doubt that there are more than 500 people in the whole world who have the background necessary to explain Kant’s ideas completely or Einstein’s ideas completely. In my opinion Christianity had not make the world a better place in over 2000 years. Islam has not made the world a better place. Kant has not make the world a better the world a better place. Einstein has not made the world a better place.

I guess all I am saying is that the proof of the pudding has to be a marked improvement in the overall human condition.

The conversation is fine Dawn. Such conversations give me mental exercise. You must admit at a certain point you seemed to be going of the deep end… you started off by saying “are you kidding me…” and then you proceeded as it seemed to me to assert that a number of things were patently obvious and perhaps undeniable… then you seemed to jump into some kind of cosmic consciousness and vibrations and charismatic energy that involved Jesus…. I am a bit groggy and headed for bed soon.

Not to be cruel but you wrote “exorcise” as a kind of Freudian slip. I think you meant exercise, and yes everything I post is kind of an exercise of my mind. But the things I addressed to you WERE an “exorcism” of the demonic delusions which seemed to be in possession of your reasoning. Now as I quickly read the end of your post I see that you are actually on a very reasonable level. I would disagree that Kant, Jesus, Buddha, Jung, Jefferson, Locke and Iacocca have it all figured out, and I think if they were all in the same room for a month speaking the same language they would violently disagree NOT because of the essence of their writings which have come down to us but because of their essential human nature and pride and obstinateness.

Dawn I am not simply saying that you are wrong IF it was the case that you were seriously asserting all this things as indisputable facts. I am also saying that NO ONE HAS it right. We are doomed as a species to decline deeper and deeper into poverty, illness war and suffering and there is no leader or system which will bail us out. That is what I say. No one is “right” or has all the answers.

By the way, I had to find out the answer to my own question about being asleep vs. being unconscious:

Unconsciousness is when a person is unable to respond to people and activities. Often, this is called a coma or being in a comatose state.

Being asleep is not the same thing as being unconscious. A sleeping person will respond to loud noises or gentle shaking — an unconscious person will not.

An unconscious person cannot cough or clear his or her throat. This can lead to death if the airway becomes blocked.

So this goes back to my original statement that when any person (even a native in a Brazilian rain forest) wakes up then they experience human consciousness which has nothing to do with conscience. They probably have some mores and folkways and taboos which give them a some moral notion and some sense of guilt when they transgress. But conscience and consciousness are not really related and there is no great mystical cosmic consciousness connecting all of us with Jesus or the Holy Spirit or Buddha or the Bodhisattvas, in my humble estimation.


I didnt say anyone had all of the answers, I did give a number of cources thast disagreed with your assertion that conscience was important and consciousness iis NOT.

Unless you know something I dont, Im not getting paid to spell check, theres no freudian slip just a typo. IM not a christian or a buddhist but I recognize the truth when I hear it.

you want us to believe the world is doomed and nothing will ever change that, and I think its crap. the world isnt doomed, it is an evolving thing, and part of evolution is breaking down the old structures for new ones. YOU seem to be taking that as a negative, and I dont. NO ONE will fix our problems, MANY people will fix our problems, the person that finds the cure for cancer will be a different person than the person that changes the broken financial system. they will be different people, but to think that those changes and those improvements wont happen is irrational. if theres one thing we KNOW it is that all things break down and new things come in their place. thats common sense.

your use of the word IT as an all defining thing is irrational and is NO WHERE close to what I said, in fact the fact that I listed a ton of people WITH the thopughts they had on different subjects should be evidence that I too OF COURSE dont believe ONE person will solve our problems, you are tilting at windmills, the reason I listed so many people with philosophies that are relative to each other but are in different areas, like JUng and freud, Kant and jesus and Buddha, and smith and jefferson, all agree on certain fundamntal things, consciousness being ONE of them, but they all had different fieelds of study and different areas of expertise, so HOW in the hell could you possibly get that I was saying One person would solve all of our problems, it will happen over thousands of years through many lifetimes, and like NYC I have no desire to be In this existence when that happens. But I certainly can look back over history and see steady movement towards a better world, you seem to be saying, there have been NOne and will be none, and I cannot see for a second how anyone could come to that conclusion. it seems to me its a pessimistic viewpoint that is more mood or emotion related than logical, I get that, I see how someone could be hopeless in a world of sufferring, but it isnt a world of ONLY sufferring. the fact that I can flip over and talk to someone in afghanistan or Pakistan right now is an amazing leap forward. the implications will be HUGE.

the reason I defined iacocas words is because we were clearly not operating on the same definition with consciousness and I wanted to clarify the rest. what seems unrelated to you, were not neccessarily unrelated to me. I make connections and you make connections, but we have different paradigms so the connections may be different but they may also both be correct.

William: I think Iacocca is a smart man. I feel sorry about Chrysler. Nothing lasts forever. The most interesting thing about this whole thread is the reason why I brought up Iacocca in the first place. In one of his recent books he urges us all to moral outrage over what has happened to our country and Washington. I saw someone else post it and I always doubt such quotes until I find it elsewhere but the quote is genuine. By the way I DO see America as “The Titanic.” Of course I am not going to live long enough to see it sink, and lets hope I am mistaken, but I do see America as “The Titanic.” I see Obama as head and shoulders about Bush and Cheney and McCain and Palin but I dont thing Obama with fix the nation and I dont thing anyone the Republicans can dig up will fix the nation or the world. That is just me. That is how I am. I am not an optimist. I am a pessimist.

On May 17, 2007, Simon & Schuster published Iacocca’s new book, Where Have All the Leaders Gone? co-written with Catherine Whitney. An article with the same title, and same two co-authors, has recently appeared. In the book, Iacocca writes:

“Am I the only guy in this country who’s fed up with what’s happening? Where the hell is our outrage? We should be screaming bloody murder. We’ve got a gang of clueless bozos steering our ship of state right over a cliff, we’ve got corporate gangsters stealing us blind, and we can’t even clean up after a hurricane much less build a hybrid car. But instead of getting mad, everyone sits around and nods their heads when the politicians say, “Stay the course.” Stay the course? You’ve got to be kidding. This is America, not the damned Titanic. I’ll give you a sound bite: Throw the bums out!

Dawn: HAVING it right, is a bogus context. a leader doesnt get to go into a room and create the world, they have to deal with the world as it is in a way that improves it. thats what leaders do. Obama wont be able to make the world perfect because people are not perfect, but he could go a long way toward doing that with a few adjustments, like changing the financial system to be more in concert with Keynes who said you have to balance private sector jobs with government jobs, and by creating an education and healthcare system building it and staffing it he could create jobs wherever there are people.

the fact that you think I would take a statement about a typo as cruel, says you have wayyy more invested in facebook than I do. its entertainment, not a job for me. I certainly dont think it was cruel, or a freudian slip, since I am happy to elaborate on any part of a very complex subject at any time. Its amazing to me that people expect to be able to discuss profound subjects like consciousness in a few sentences. thats part of our problem, people dont really proccess what they learn, they memorize and they want, therefore little bits of profound information without any actual reading being required.

and I dont mean YOU personnally, I mean people in general. and Just because I am a shitty speller doesnt mean the content that I convey is incorrect. BY that logic all dyslexics ( of which einstein was one) would be stupid and have nothing to contribute. shame people think that way.


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