Shall all be saved?

Why bother becoming a Christian? I mean even the atheists get saved? I am kind of like Groucho Marx in that I am not interested in a God who would save me (Marx would not be part of a country club which would accept him) … I am serious… I am not being sarcastic.. and of course I respect your right to take your position, except your position (and the position I see expressed by others) simply renders a number of verses meaningless…

Seriously, in the parable of the 5 wise virgins and the 5 foolish virgins, what make the foolish ones foolish if all get saved (and why are the foolish locked out of the wedding feast?) If I remember correctly, there is one place where someone is called a fool, and it is a wealthy man who tells his soul to relax because of all the wealth stored up, but he is called “fool” because he did not realize that on that very night his soul would be required of him (i.e. he would die) so why is that man a fool. And for that matter, why does Paul tell people that they should “work out their salvation with fear and trembling.) Or in Acts when Simon tries to purchase the grace of the apostles and then repents and asks if forgiveness is possible and the apostles say they are not certain. In fact here are the verses about Simon in Acts 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

8:21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

8:23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

8:24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the LORD for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

And what of that “sin against the Holy Spirit” which may not be forgiven? Here is a good deal of info in Wikipedia, but you have read all these things yourself many times.

But, I do not understand why you use the word “maybe” when you are 1000% convinced that everyone gets saved no matter what. How can you have such unshakable certainty in universal salvation for all but then express uncertainty about what Jesus might mean regarding “eternity.” Let’s take a look at Charles Stanley’s doctrine of “The Eternal Security of Salvation.” Stanley’s preacher son was on television (“In Touch Ministries”) and told how he was a boy and his granny or auntie sat him on her knee and coaxed him “now you want to go to heaven don’t you?” and at first he said NO but then she coaxed him some more and he said “yes” and then she told him to “repeat the magic words” which of course go something like this “Jesus I invite you into my heart as my personal savior, etc…” and from THAT VERY moment on he had “THE ETERNAL SECURITY OF SALVATION” such that even if he were to become Hitler, or Jeffrey Dahmer or Hannibal Lecter HE CANNOT LOSE HIS salvation! BUT, you see, they HAD to coax him into saying the magic words. Now Tom, you seem to be saying that not even the magic words are necessary but bin Laden will be saved etc. Now once a depressed man came to a pastor who preached the “eternal security of salvation” and asked if God would send him to hell for committing suicide. The pastor explained that there is NO WAY he can lose his salvation. So, the man went home home and committed suicide.

Origin on the salvation of Satan: a very nice Universalist who vaguely resembles Popeye insists that each and every soul will be saved and nothing one can do will change that. I firmly believe that many scriptural passages make no sense in the light of such a doctrine, BUT I do know that Origin took such a position and was declared a heretic (even though Origin COINED the term Theotokos [Mother of God] ).

It seems to me that nothing has essentially changed; our race seems to incurably transfer guilt and evil onto our opponents. Some Moslems demonize America as “the great Satan”, Western Christians do the same to Moslems. Rather than face up to our own personal sin, humanity so earnestly seeks to project evil onto others- Jews, Catholics, Communists, Russians, Arabs, blacks, whites… when the root of all cruelty, the ultimate flaw, is within the human hearts of every one of us (Mk. 7:15-23).

A further clarification: What is Universalist Unitarianism?

Unitarian Universalists do not share a creed; rather, they are unified by their shared search for spiritual growth and by the belief that an individual’s theology is a result of that search and not obedience to an authoritative requirement. Unitarian Universalists draw on many different theological sources and have a wide range of beliefs and practices.

WHILE IT IS TRUE THAT: Christian Universalism denies the doctrine of everlasting damnation, and proclaims belief in an entirely loving God who will ultimately redeem all human beings.

IT IS ALSO TRUE THAT: Concepts about deity are diverse among UUs. Some have no belief in any gods (atheism); others believe in many gods (polytheism). Some believe that the question of the existence of any god is most likely unascertainable or unknowable (agnosticism). Some believe that God is a metaphor for a transcendent reality. Some believe in a female god (goddess), a passive god (Deism), an Abrahamic god, or a god manifested in nature or the universe (pantheism). Many UUs reject the idea of deities and instead speak of the “spirit of life” that binds all life on earth. UUs support each person’s search for truth and meaning in concepts of spirituality.

THEREFORE: it is more correct for one to say that their own personal view regarding salvation is thus and such.

BUT: a view that this life is all their is and then the existence of the individual ceases would also represent a concept of “salvation” from suffering. SO ALSO would a belief that only the righteous live on with God in some new creation while the wicked simply are no more (which agrees with some Jewish views.)

Matthew adds in a Private Instant Message:
as an aside I would add that the Mormons believe that everyone goes to a better place – they are the weird side of the Christian right – they have run into problems because they try to retroactively save jews and nazis both. This offends a lot of people and the Mormons do seem very strange but in this peculiar way they are sort of like Universalists

David Vermette: My understanding is that Universalism was rejected on epistemological grounds. Since salvation (or not) depends on a cooperation of two wills (the divine and the human) and the human will is free to choose, Universalism would imply that we *know* that every will will incline towards its natural felicity. In fact we don’t know that, since if we did, the wills would not truly be free. Since we do not know that every will will ultimately cooperate with the divine will, then Universalism cannot be taught as a dogma. We can hope, pray, and even speculate that everyone will be united with the divine will eventually — in fact God “wills all human beings to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth” — but salvation depends not only on the divine will but also on the capriciousness of human will. Therefore, to proclaim universal salvation would be presumptuous — it would claim a knowledge to which we don’t really have access.

well said, BUT your phrase “capriciousness of human will” hits me like a sledge hammer with the excellent realization that we should compare “the capriciousness of the HUMAN will” which we never see mentioned (to my knowledge) with “the capriciousness of Allah” which is dogmatic in that verse “for do ye not know that Allah may ABROGATE anything and will replace it with something better.” Insofar as most theological writing is all too human and humans are all too proud to acknowledge their capricious vicissitudes but prefer to be infallible and of course infallibility has no caprice but is written in stone. And yet for many, that notion that God might be ineluctably bound even by Himself is a notion which diminishes God’s sovereign omnipotence, we lean towards the notion that human cooperation plays no role in the matter of salvation and that God can be totally capricious and in no way self-limiting.

As I sip my coffee and reflect, in the Judaeo-Christian tradition is it God who is the unchanging rock of salvation and man who says “that which I would, I do not; while what I would not, I do.” But in Islam, the believer and the infidel are indelibly created as they are from before the foundation of the world, and they are merely cast into existence to PROVE their nature so than when the infidel is cast into eternal torment he or she will not be able to complain that they would have believed if only they had been given a chance (and this is addressed somewhere in Hadith) while Allah is totally capricious and not even bound by His own declarations for He has the power of abrogation and repeal.

Matthew: I appreciate your private message. I was away from the keyboard for hours. You have taught me something I did not realize about Latter Day Saints (Mormons)

Of course, when you think about it, it makes much more sense to punish and humble Satan by making him holy and saved. What does it really mean to “destroy Satan?” Lincoln once said “When I make my enemy into a friend am I not destroying my enemy?”

Apparently (above) Lord Byron wrote some poems (which were surpressed) which spoke of Satan’s forgiveness.

Angiolina: Heaven bids us forgive our enemies.
Doge: Doth heaven forgiver her own? Is Satan saved
from wrath eternal?
Angiolina: Do not speak thus wildly —
Heaven will alike forgive you and your foes.


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