Facebook thread on Scandanavian charge of Muslim violence

I have know many different immigrants from many countries and many different religions, and lived closely among them, so I take each one as individual

It is true that there is more violence to be found among many Muslims than say Sikhs…. but then look at the Tamil Tigers of Sri Lanka some of whom are Hindu but some are Roman Catholic from the Portuguese settlement on the West Coast…

I am not going to see everything through rose colored glasses, but I have Egyptian friends, and Bangla friends, and Indonesian,… and I am not afraid to walk through Muslim neighborhoods. I think they did more harm than good by protesting the WTC ground zero cultural center…. Someone wisely pointed out that America has a more thriving peaceful Muslim community than other countries…

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One of my friends in India lives in a city of 1.5 million Muslims and he agrees with some of the views I have expressed…. one of which is that the Qur’an and Hadith does have many verses which encourage resisting and or subjugating the non Muslim minority. The Gospels and Bhagavad-gita are much more lenient traditions to work with/in but I think we have to grant Muslims their rights, and the benefit of the doubt… that the radical extremists do NOT represent the vast majority.

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and there are many attempts in North America in media entertainment to integrate Muslim life into culture in a very positive light,… like “Little Mosque on the Prairie” in Canada… I think such portrayals help the public become used to the alternate lifestyle culture, just like shows about black life, Jewish life, LGBT life…

We hate and fear what we dont understand…

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Look at most Roman Catholics you know, and most Jews in the diamond district, and most Buddhists and Hindus…. and I know A LOT, and some of them show up to religious functions 2 or 3 times a year, and otherwise they are immersed in their secular life, values, family, passtimes, material things… they are hardly some monolithic force or insideous comspiracy with some agenda…. they are just trying to survive and stay connected to the ethos of their ancestors, but they certainly constantly modify and reform in the process
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I do think it is dangerous for fanatic young people to start vandalizing and mugging peaceful Muslims randomly… you cannot hate very blond haired blue eyed person for the Holocaust or ever Asian for Pearl Harbor… or every Caucasian for slavery and KKK… it is just senseless stereotyping.

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I know that years and years go Paris was very safe. Now there is a lot of violence from different ethic minorities. I think it arises when there are ghettos and economic inequality or unemployment so people cannot be absorbed into main-stream culture and so they see THE OTHERS as aliens, enemies… I did not really study the original article of this link. I do know Paris is more dangerous now than it was in the 1930s through 50s based on people I have spoken with and things I have read.

Also, educational opportunities or lack of them are a huge factor.

I spoke with people who lived through THe Great Depression when there were homeless in Central Park, and there was not the violence there is now because there was not the drug problem that there is now which is EVERYWHERE and crosses cultural and religious boundaries.

In the Civil RIghts movement of the 1960s, much progress was made from non violent protests… but I think the government was scared into doing what was right because of the violence that broke out.

Pakistan and India should be able to find much in common and there should not be terrorist attacks in Mumbai. Young people are idealistic and are easily indoctrinated by organizations in to thinking that they can sacrifice for the glory of some goal or ideal. There are cultures where rape is seen as a form of punishment and humiliation to put the enemy in place….. I dont know… these are just some of my thoughts late at night as I react to threads…

Look at the true story of Phulan Devi who was raped by a small village in India, and then became a gangster leader which even the government could not catch or tame. Finally the gov. cut a deal with her gang and they laid down their weapons and disbanded. Later she was assassinated.

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Perhaps the thing to do is look at world wide rape statistics plus rapes in history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Turkish_War_(1877%E2%80%931878)

A number of works by Russian painters and writers were dedicated to the Bulgarian uprising:
A painting by Konstantin Makovsky, ‘The Bulgarian martyresses’, depicted a scene of mass rape of Bulgarian women by Bashi-bazouks inside the desecrated Orthodox church.
Turgenev in his poem ‘Croquet at Windsor’ (1876) accused Queen Victoria of tolerating Ottoman atrocities in Bulgaria;
Polonsky’s verse Bulgarian woman (1876) depicted the humiliation of a Bulgarian woman whose whole family was killed and who was taken into a harem, only to be further harassed by other concubines.

I know in countries like Iran and Pakistan, if a virgin is convicted of a capital offense, the guards will rape her because it is forbidden to execute a virgin.

Now you have roused my curiosity and I am searching :

http://majorityrights.com/index.php/weblog/comments/muslim_rape_wave_in_sweden/

http://theopinionator.typepad.com/my_weblog/2010/01/-muslim-gang-rapes-man-in-manchester-center.html

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/4097

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sorry, I just came back on line today to look at this thread. You ask about young fanatics mugging Muslims. There have been increased incidences of anti-Muslim based violence. One would have to be quite naive to think this would never happen or could never happen. Our own Republican congressman Tom Tancredo openly advocated nuking the holy site (Kaaba) in Mecca as a retaliation for 9/11

Desperate people take desperate measures. Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a great man of faith but he did travel to Germany to assassinate Hitler. He did write “The Cost of Discipleship” about “cheap grace” in his cell before the Nazis hanged him. I am mentioning this simply to point out that even educated and perhaps saintly people can reach a point of desperation where a violent and lawless act like assassination can seem justified. At some point some people far less saintly or educated than Bonhoeffer may get the idea that arson or bombing would be a fitting retaliation.

Someone asked a cab driver if he is Muslim and when he answered “yes” they stabbed him. Some teens have been shooting at Mosques and vandalizing them. I simply mean to point out that such vigilante violence has flared up in the past in history, and there is nothing to stop it from happening in the future. Every year of my life I notice occasional anti-Semitic items in the news. If ignorant and bigoted people decide to take the law into their own hands then it will be tragic, but such things do happen.

I have friends in south India who tell me of increased Hindu violence against Catholic Churches. I know people in Indonesia who tell me of Muslim violence against the Catholic minorities there. In Malaysia for YEARS the convert to Islam becomes a first class citizen called “bhumi putra” (native son) and they get tax breaks, while the non-Muslims do not even have their marriages honored. A man left his Hindu wife and children, converted to Islam and took a Muslim wife in Kuala Lumpur, and because Hindu marriages are not valid under the law, there was NOTHING the Hindu woman could do.

We make ourselves look very foolish intellectually if we try to stereotype any group in any particular fashion as generally wicked and dangerous or generally decent and beyond acts of violence.

All we really have at our disposal is what we can search on the Internet. Some of it is quite slanted propaganda and other links are valid journalism so we have to sort that out.

Islam is the least favorite religion of the ones I have studied. I have one entire shelf of books on Qur’an Hadith, Sufism, history, etc. and I have made an honest effort since 1998 to read them and think about things. That does not make me an expert but neither am I totally ignorant.

I think that more harm than good has been done by protesting the Islamic center. You have a president a governor and a mayor supporting the action on the grounds of constitutional rights and freedoms and you have crowds with tea-bagger mentality protesting. I imagine the Islamic center will be build anyway and things will calm down. There are certainly many flavors and varieties of Islam and Muslims in the world and one cannot say that 19 Arab extremists represented all 1.5 billion Muslims. If it happens in the next 100 years that Islam becomes the majority religion in America then life will go on if there is not some retaliation of civil war or worse yet ethnocide.

Anyway, thanks for tolerating my presence in this thread. I am not always right and I don’t know everything but I try to be fair and honest in saying what is on my mind, and trying to see other peoples points of view (and perhaps even change my mind.) Regarding Scandinavian reports characterizing Muslim immigrants as at the center of crime or violence, perhaps it is propaganda or perhaps there is some element of truth. I don’t think anyone considers the history of the Italian Mafia in America to be some kind of propaganda to slander Italians. On the other hand one cannot say that all Italians are gangsters.

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I just now googled on : increased violence anti-muslim america vandalism

and I come up with over 200,000 hits . Some of it is probably exaggerated propaganda and some is probably accurate

Here is a pro-Islam link documenting anti-Muslim incidents

http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/

Here is another link that seems to be human rights based

http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/discrimination/reports.aspx?s=muslims&p=antimuslim

Here is something from LOONWATCH who claim to be against every form of hate-based descrimination:

http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/08/second-anti-muslim-hate-crime-in-24-hours/

I can see that you are posting replies, but I wanted to sort out a couple of links…
I think you make great points that America has a wonderful stable Muslim population.
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“violence against Quakers” as a phrase yields 127 results which all seem to pertain to events of centuries past.

“violence against scientologists” yields 78,000 results

“violence against muslims” yields 480,000 results

I know many people are more comfortable in their little world of denial limiting their vision to what supports their cherished beliefs, but I think there is some correlation. But, suite yourselves since obviously you know best.
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… when you said “William. Where did young fanatics mugging Muslims come from?” I thought perhaps you do not believe that there growing violence against Muslims, so I googled on the topic to find you some links. Perhaps I misunderstood what you asked Mally. Perhaps you acknowledge that there is growing violence against Muslims and you ask what CAUSES such violence and vandalism to which I would say that it comes from ignorance and young people who are trained by their parents to be bigoted. When I was age 10 I hated Democrats because my parents were Republicans and they made disparaging remarks against Democrats. When I grew up I realized that I am more of a Democrat than a Republican. My parents claimed to be Protestant and so I assumed that Protestant was good and Catholic was bad. Again, when I grew up and studied more I realized that Catholicism is a good thing. Mally, you gave me a useful idea when you suggest that the Islamic center should be devoted to progressive reform such as women leadership and the banning of female “circumcision.” I have spent four years participating in http://progressiveislam.org simply to force myself to overcome my prejudices and TRY to get along. They do tolerate me but no one befriends me. I am glad I made the effort because I learned to be more tolerant.

When someone poo-poos the notion that the number of hits on a google search has significance, then I must be open-minded and experiment.

Not too many people hate Quakers these days, so the 127 references are historical references. Scientologists tend to irritate people, so there are some instances of violence against Scientologists and also some claims or propaganda from Scientologists that they are being mistreated.

When I google on “violence against dinosaurs” I come up with SEVEN hits which seem to refer to comic books (Turok) and sci-fi movies (Jurassic Park.)

“violence against amoebas” results in ZERO hits which is not surprising.

“violence against Jews” yields 640,000 hits.

“violence against Catholics” = 146,000

“violence against women” = 4,200,000

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I come on line to forget about how wretched my life is, to distract myself. I also like to learn new things and see things from the perspective of people very different from me. I do not intentionally patronize people by telling them the obvious. I touch type what comes into my mind at 80wpm. I read it over quickly but it is extemporaneous off-the-cuff.

It does make SOME sense that I clarify my personal position that violence is not a good solution to the worlds problems for the simple reason that there ARE people who think that such violence is JUSTIFIED (e.g. KKK, Nazis, some tea-baggers and even the likes of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, as well as Republican congressman) … I actually know of one life-long clergyman who has a collection of assault weapons and says things to the effect that under certain circumstances he would condone or resort to violence, taking the law into his own hands.

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/U.S._Rep._Tom_Tancredo_clarifies_’nuke_Mecca’_comments

So, I am sorry if you thought I was patronizing you, standing upon high ground, saying the obvious that violence against Muslims or anyone is wrong and a bad way to solve problems. That certainly was not my intent to patronize or moralize.

I am not trying to pick a fight with anyone or argue. This is only Facebook. I am certain that none of us will ever see eye-to-eye on any issue nor is it necessary that we all agree. In fact if we SILO ourselves into groups who are totally like-minded whether Left or Right or religious or atheist, then we lose out because we are not exposed to new ideas. And even a bad idea can benefit us if we see a clever way to refute it.

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