Handwriting On the Wall- Weighed & Wanting

diogr49: folks were chatting while you read but i let them be free

diogr49: and I noticed a few Amens

dio mio_2: i am nobody

diogr49: well, BUT, you were reading about a Somebody

dio mio_2: they let me pray the office in the different rooms

dio mio_2: yes

diogr49: but it is not good for me to be a Catholic Nazi

diogr49: ha ha

dio mio_2: its a big time right now fir us catholics

dio mio_2: catholic fascist?

diogr49: you know, strict,

diogr49: chastizing others

dio mio_2: i was chatised right of a big room once

diogr49: God moves whom He will and God is sufficient

dio mio_2: it was my loss

dio mio_2: sounds like st theresa of avila

diogr49: the more judgmental people are the more they seek to hide their own uncertainty

diogr49: in the final analysis, there IS no analysis; all is subjective

dio mio_2: but you dont have rules and norms law and order universal teaching where are you?

diogr49: everything stands or falls in the final I-Thou relationship

diogr49: well, the world is filled with laws as it is filled with transgressors

dio mio_2: the i thou relationship i havent hears that expression for many a year

diogr49: one cannot legislate morality

diogr49: it just popped into my head

diogr49: our minds can be conduits if we become quiet

dio mio_2: my father confessor talked of the i thou relationship

diogr49: like wi-fi routers or hot spots

dio mio_2: he was fransiscan

dio mio_2: whats a conduit socrates?

diogr49: Carl Rogers used an interesting technique, of serving as a MIRROR to the other

dio mio_2: please explain

diogr49: well, we cannot know what conducts us

diogr49: from the good treasury of the good heart the good person brings forth good things

dio mio_2: i see

diogr49: but we are judged by every word

diogr49: and presumably every thought

dio mio_2: it all become a bit much fo r us to bear

dio mio_2: scrupulosity is not good

diogr49: for there is only one “knower of the heart” as Prophet Samuel was informed when he was sent to find king David

diogr49: there is among the Greeks economia and akrivia or exactness

diogr49: so by strictness we do one thing, and by economy we tolerate other things

diogr49: things which deviate from strictness

dio mio_2: yes i suppose so

diogr49: so “If you would be PERFECT then go and do these most difficult things and take up your cross”

dio mio_2: i would not be perfect

diogr49: BUT if you would simply gain eternal life, then at least observe THESE things

dio mio_2: i will try

diogr49: ah, but Jesus said those words to one person, so, they must serve some purpose

diogr49: not to all, but to a few at least

dio mio_2: yes diogr

diogr49: one man wanted to follow the disciples but was gently turned away

diogr49: and the Spirit in Acts forbade preaching in a certain region during that season of time

diogr49: the sheep know their masters voice, but as the Greeks say, we are LOGIKA PROBATA (logical sheep) so we must listen and discern.. for faith comes by hearing (listening) and hearing by the Word

diogr49: and we pray that bishops RIGHTLY DIVIDE or interpret the word

dio mio_2: are you copying this from a book?

diogr49: but, we are all vessels of clay

diogr49: no, i speak from my thoughts extemporaneously

dio mio_2: gbu

dio mio_2: but you have so many thoughts

dio mio_2: is not one enough to ponder for a lifetime?

diogr49: if you read “The pilgrim” by an anonymous russian, who says the prayer of the heart, then you notice that the pilgrim internalizes the scriptures until it becomes his nature

diogr49: but you see i am a parrot whose cage has been in some interesting parlors

dio mio_2: ok

diogr49: so, i repeat what i have heard many times

dio mio_2: yes i am nothing but a clever monkey ot parrot myself

diogr49: but, through the alembic of my memory and personality, it is transformed and seems fresh

diogr49: Yeats prefaces all his poems with one line from Augustine

diogr49: Oh thou Beauty most ancient yet most fresh! Far and wide I did seek thee, and all along, Thou was withing

dio mio_2: very good

diogr49: in Euclidian geometry if point A is distance X from point B, then B is equally distance X from point A

diogr49: BUT in spiritual geometry, though we may be distant from the divinity, the divinity yet dwells within us, very near

diogr49: Paul said something like this

dio mio_2: gbu diog

diogr49: the ancient Greek prayer “O Thou who are everywere present and fillest all things COME AND ABIDE with in us”

dio mio_2: thankyu for a wounderful retreat

diogr49: how strange that we beckon that which is every where present to come and dwell within us

diogr49: but, you see, though we journey through many lands far and wide, we call only one place home

dio mio_2: i wish i had had time and no fear so i could have read and thought too

diogr49: so when the two apostles followed Jesus, and he showed them where he dwelled, the were quite amazed

diogr49: but why should they be amazed by a simple bed and table and chair

dio mio_2: i wish i had been to school

diogr49: but when Solomon completed the temple, he said “how can God, whom the universe cannot contain, dwell in this small temple

diogr49: Faith is a gift, given to each of us, as much as is necessary for the individual who has GIFTS DIFFERING… and from faith proceeds understanding, but only as much understanding as is necessary to be salvific

dio mio_2: yes diog

diogr49: but you see, this is not me speaking, but centuries of tradition

diogr49: which i have simply internalized

dio mio_2: it is you speaking

diogr49: birds sing, but it is not their song they sing

diogr49: well, yes, it is words on a screen

diogr49: words are sounds

diogr49: simply sounds

dio mio_2: its effort and heart

dio mio_2: its a will to share

dio mio_2: its self realisation

dio mio_2: actualisation

diogr49: habits can be our best friends or our worst enemies

diogr49: exactly

dio mio_2: its evnegism

dio mio_2: evangelism

diogr49: we choose through our free will

diogr49: nothing may happen without the individuals freewill consent

dio mio_2: one must be able to have a freewill

dio mio_2: that is not always possible

diogr49: Kierkegaard pointed out that it was Abrahams will to choose to empower the voice he heard as Gods voice and not some idle imagining

dio mio_2: maybe he was right

diogr49: Samuel as a youth heard a voice, but only when instructed by that elderly high priest did Samuel understand how to respond to that voice

diogr49: Eli, i forgot the high priests name for a moment

dio mio_2: without knowledge we are nothing

dio mio_2: or at least less tha n it

diogr49: Samuel was consecrated as a prophet before his conception, when Hanna his mother was praying

diogr49: and Samuel was sent to rebuke and reform the wayward sons of Eli

diogr49: and yet, aged Eli, failing in eyesight, was the vessel which preserved the tradition to guide young Prophet Samuel, now to respond to God’s voice

diogr49: so, in that very drama we see the problem and the solution

dio mio_2: whats the time with you there diogr?

diogr49: the problem is our fallen earthen nature, yet we are vessels which transmit the solution to all future ages in the form of tradition

dio mio_2: would you pray the divine office with me?

dio mio_2: evening prayer?

dio mio_2: we could take it in turns

dio mio_2: each reading a psalm or canticle

diogr49: how would i bring up the text

dio mio_2: universalis.com

diogr49: yes i have mic, please give me link to reading

dio mio_2: vespers

diogr49: and instruct me when to read

dio mio_2: http://universalis.com/vespers.htm

diogr49: i was thinking of that verse, 2 or 3

dio mio_2: which was that dio?

diogr49: wherever 2 or 3 are gathered together

dio mio_2: you are something of a thinker which i am not!

diogr49: that is why 3 bishops are ideal to consecrate a new bishop, by akrivia exactness, but 2 are sufficient by economia

dio mio_2: ys that happens

diogr49: among the greeks and russian

dio mio_2: the greek and russian orthodox churches frighten me

dio mio_2: the universal does not

diogr49: what we do not know or understand frightens us

diogr49: we are frightened by the unknown

dio mio_2: yes true

dio mio_2: yes and by our own sin too

diogr49: and when we know all ways then we are at home and at peace with the world

diogr49: the truth is one, but the paths to it are many

dio mio_2: its most terrible to contemplate that our father in heaven saw us think and do our evil

dio mio_2: he was watching us

dio mio_2: that frightens me

diogr49: well, consider what it means to “hunger and thirst after righteousness”

dio mio_2: but e is ever merciful and loving

diogr49: normally we thirst long before we hunger

diogr49: yet, the bread is first, and THEN the wine

diogr49: only when flesh is pierced does blood flow

diogr49: and throughout the old and new testament, the phrase hunger and thirst appears NINE times

dio mio_2: ok

diogr49: but nine is a unique number, 2 times 9 is 18 but 8 plus 1 is nine

diogr49: 3 times 9 is 27 but seven plus 2 = 9

diogr49: so, 9 is like God… it mingles through the universe yet remains unchanged, untainted

dio mio_2: ok

diogr49: 9 is like God become man so that, as 4th cent. Athanasius said, man might become as God

diogr49: which is the divinization of mankind

diogr49: which is a Greek theme of the Christians of the first several centuries

diogr49: i was in a russian monastery and then a greek monastery in the 1970s

billy_b0777: dedication

diogr49: i was a novice for 13 months in the greek athonite monastery in brookline mass.

diogr49: nice

diogr49: may I have the link to Chrysostom’s homily, please

Reading From the Catecheses by Saint John Chrysostom, bishop
The power of Christ’s blood
If we wish to understand the power of Christ’s blood, we should go back to the ancient account of its prefiguration in Egypt. “Sacrifice a lamb without blemish,” commanded Moses, “and sprinkle its blood on your doors.” If we were to ask him what he meant, and how the blood of an irrational beast could possibly save men endowed with reason, his answer would be that the saving power lies not in the blood itself, but in the fact that it is a sign of the Lord’s blood. In those days, when the destroying angel saw the blood on the doors he did not dare to enter, so how much less will the devil approach now when he sees, not that figurative blood on the doors, but the true blood on the lips of believers, the doors of the temple of Christ.
If you desire further proof of the power of this blood, remember where it came from, how it ran down from the cross, flowing from the Master’s side. The gospel records that when Christ was dead, but still hung on the cross, a soldier came and pierced his side with a lance and immediately there poured out water and blood. Now the water was a symbol of baptism and the blood, of the holy Eucharist. The soldier pierced the Lord’s side, he breached the wall of the sacred temple, and I have found the treasure and made it my own. So also with the lamb: the Jews sacrificed the victim and I have been saved by it.
“There flowed from his side water and blood.” Beloved, do not pass over this mystery without thought; it has yet another hidden meaning, which I will explain to you. I said that water and blood symbolised baptism and the holy Eucharist. From these two sacraments the Church is born: from baptism, “the cleansing water that gives rebirth and renewal through the Holy Spirit,” and from the holy Eucharist. Since the symbols of baptism and the Eucharist flowed from his side, it was from his side that Christ fashioned the Church, as he had fashioned Eve from the side of Adam Moses gives a hint of this when he tells the story of the first man and makes him exclaim: “Bone from my bones and flesh from my flesh!” As God then took a rib from Adam’s side to fashion a woman, so Christ has given us blood and water from his side to fashion the Church. God took the rib when Adam was in a deep sleep, and in the same way Christ gave us the blood and the water after his own death.
Do you understand, then, how Christ has united his bride to himself and what food he gives us all to eat? By one and the same food we are both brought into being and nourished. As a woman nourishes her child with her own blood and milk, so does Christ unceasingly nourish with his own blood those to whom he himself has given life.
(end of homily)

diogr49: i just now realized

diogr49: Adam slept during creation of Eve

diogr49: Abraham was in trance before God came with vision

diogr49: and the apostles slept in Gethsemane while Christ worked part of the salvation

diogr49: so, three sleepings

dio mio_2: http://universalis.com/readings.htm

diogr49: and three marriages

diogr49: marriage of male and female

diogr49: marriage of God and chosen people

diogr49: Marriage of Christ and Church

dio mio_2: wow diogr

diogr49: interesting

dio mio_2: you are very thoughtful

dio mio_2: very good

Alert: fitzy5729 reddotted by: diogr49

diogr49: i suspect bad intentions

diogr49: in that fellow

diogr49: he wants to bait us

dio mio_2: we are all sinners

diogr49: and Paul says not to fall to vain disputation

dio mio_2: i am the worst here

diogr49: if he has internet, he can easily seek meanings

billy_b0777: well dont take bite

diogr49: so, he lies,

dio mio_2: good billy!

diogr49: i knows perfectly well how HE wants to understand it

billy_b0777: yep

dio mio_2: hi billy

diogr49: i might be a fool but i aint born yesterday

billy_b0777: now that is funny

dio mio_2: i continually get it all wrong

diogr49: the russians always have “fools for Christ” but this is rare among greeks

billy_b0777: who ???

diogr49: a fool for Christ is someone who crucifies themselves with foolishness for Christs sake

billy_b0777: please

diogr49: whenever one visits Russian monasteries, one will often see someone who is child like and cared for by monastery

diogr49: seemingly devoid of adult reason

diogr49: if you google on RUSSIAN “FOOL FOR CHRIST” you will find much

diogr49: i am sure

dio mio_2: i am staying with Rome and the west DIO

dio mio_2: gbu

diogr49: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foolishness_for_Christ

billy_b0777: good

diogr49: i have spent my life studying all world religions

dio mio_2: i have wasted my life

diogr49: but, even in waste, we spend

diogr49: we expend

dio mio_2: i am a beggar for gods help and mercy

dio mio_2: thats all i am really

dio mio_2: i am not much good to anyone

billy_b0777: good thing to me

diogr49: there is a story about a man in a flood, who climbed upon the roof and prayed for God’s help

diogr49: a boat came by, and offered him help but he said “i will wait for God”

diogr49: then a helicopter came, and offered him help, and he said I will wait for God

dio mio_2: yes thats a good story

diogr49: he finally died and came to heaven, and saw God and said, Why didnt you help me

diogr49: God said “I sent you a boat and a helicopter”

dio mio_2: poor me!

diogr49: we must be able to discern the help

diogr49: we may lead a horse to water but cannot force the horse to drink

dio mio_2: yes diogr

diogr49: Rumi said “seek THIRST for without thirst, water is of no value”

diogr49: so, i can say to you SEEK THIRST, but you must decide for yourself what is pure water, and what is muddy water

dio mio_2: diogr has been saying some great things

diogr49: pure water is never drawn from a broken cistern

diogr49: or well

diogr49: the early Greek bishops called a misguided pastor a broken cistern

diogr49: consider the 5 wise virgins and the 5 foolish

diogr49: they were ALL VIRGINS, all pure… purity is necessary but not sufficient

dio mio_2: we all live with that today

diogr49: the foolish lacked OIL, which in Greek is a pun on charity, works

catfishjim2000: were in the book that tell you diogr?

diogr49: oh, the Greeks have spoken of all this for centuries

catfishjim2000: as l have not come across it

dio mio_2: amazing diogr

catfishjim2000: have not

diogr49: in the Greek monasteries, these are old logs to the lumberjacks

dio mio_2: james diogr has lived in monesteries

diogr49: well, you might read the Philokalia

diogr49: the philokalia was composed by 70 authors from 3rd century to 11th century

catfishjim2000: l be too monesteries

diogr49: but the bulk is written by Maximos the Confessor

catfishjim2000: for a day

dio mio_2: i visited too james

diogr49: aha, but orthodox monasteries are a different world

dio mio_2: benedictine

dio mio_2: how so diogr?

catfishjim2000: its was very cold up there

diogr49: well, you must read the philokalia to begin to understand

catfishjim2000: l went in the december

diogr49: just as Protestants refuse to read the Apocrypha, and then complain that they do not understand

dio mio_2: i cant read with respect to you diogr

diogr49: Isaiah said “unless you believe, you shall not understand”

dio mio_2: i dont refuse its a matter of physcology problems

diogr49: i guarantee you that Chrysostom would drink from the well of the Philokalia

dio mio_2: i believe you

diogr49: and the monastics over the centuries drank from the well of Chrysostome

diogr49: i do not offer you poison

diogr49: but only you can take the medicine

diogr49: i would suggest to anyone that they acquire Jaroslav Pelikan’s 5 volume paperback history of development of Christian Doctrine

diogr49: he was a Yale Sterling professor of History

diogr49: he is quite readable for the layperson, and quite unbiased

diogr49: i mean, no hidden agendas

dio mio_2: i am staying with our bishop diogr lol

dio mio_2: i am a simple fool

catfishjim2000: well we be to church today

diogr49: i guarantee you that Pope Benedict has read all such things

diogr49: as well as Hans Kung

diogr49: but the choice will always be yours

dio mio_2: i dont want to get confused its all far too much for my tiny mind to imagine

catfishjim2000: ok

dio mio_2: i am in WALES

diogr49: my wife now gives me chores to do

diogr49: i will stay logged in

dio mio_2: diogr are you eastern orthodox

diogr49: i was Greek Orthodox for 20 years, and afraid of Catholicism, i looked at Hans Kungs books like vampire sees a cross

diogr49: you are a good man, and good men are hard to find

diogr49: maraming salamat po

dio mio_2: diogr49 do you go to a church now?

diogr49: as Gen Douglas McArthur said “I shall return”

diogr49: i thought i was just in church with you, n’est pas?

diogr49: you and i are the church for a moment, no?

dio mio_2: diogr stop avoiding my question

diogr49: if the church is not you and i just now,… then where is it

diogr49: pride is a great enemy

dio mio_2: you are being devious

diogr49: and now, again, fear

dio mio_2: i am disapointed

diogr49: you desire disappointment… and we find what we seek

dio mio_2: its been great being with you diogr

dio mio_2: gbu

diogr49: the saint can see saintliness even in the worst sinner, but a sinner sees sinfulness even in the holiest of saints

dio mio_2: i am not looking for either in you

diogr49: you are trying to convince yourself

dio mio_2: i was only wondering if you were roman catholic

diogr49: because you are uncertain and afraid, that is my conjecture

dio mio_2: i am bt not concerning you

diogr49: but only you can know what is in your own heart, and it is not for me to inquire or understand

dio mio_2: ok

dio mio_2: lol

diogr49: you are so close, yet so far

dio mio_2: ok

diogr49: one never sees a smiling icon

dio mio_2: nice to meet you

dio mio_2:

dio mio_2: catfish why are you going to work in hpspital

diogr49: i speak of spiritual distance, not geometric

diogr49: the famous “handwriting on the wall” (mene mene shekel uparsin) “you have been weighed and found wanting”

dio mio_2: you are very knowledgeable and respectable diogr49

diogr49: but no one could understand until Daniel interpreted

diogr49: if i remember

diogr49: the handwriting was metaphorical, not literal

diogr49: Chrysostom was metaphorical, but modern denominations are literal

dio mio_2: mene mene shekel uparsin

diogr49: Bible based… but the first epistle was only written in 55ad, and the Gospels were not completed until 100ad

diogr49: so, where was the Bible based church for 30 years

diogr49: few people consider that

dio mio_2: in the memory

diogr49: tradition produces scripture, scripture does not produce tradition

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