Paltalk Bible Discussion on Wisdom

I gained a new insight yesterday during a long Bible discussion in Paltalk.

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p80.htm

Excerpt:

..physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 yeas ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage.

Here is an excerpt of my reply to a Facebook thread on this:

You all miss the whole point of my post I suspect. Someone in Paltalk said they doubted that the RC would accept anything which contradicts Genesis

AND I POINTED OUT THAT

, on the contrary, the Pope acknowledges that geneticists and physicists have made strong arguments; i.e. the RC his hardly fundamentalist. There are Roman Catholic Old Testament scholars who deconstruct the Old Testament to reveal the existence of various authors in say Genesis based upon style of language and who entertain as a reasonable conjecture such theories as those of Julius Wellhausen (Prolegomena to the History of Israel – 1878) recognizing four sources of authorship; Yahwest (J), Elohist (E), Priestly (P) and Deuteronomist (D).

In particular I am impressed by “Reading The Old Testament – An Introduction” by Lawrence Boadt, C.S.P, Paulist Press ISBN 0-8091-2631-1

Lawrence Boadt, CSP, is an ordained priest in the Paulist Fathers, and professor emeritus of Scripture Studies at the Washington Theological Union. He has written and spoken widely on Old Testament topics, and currently serves as the president and publisher of Paulist Press in Mahwah, NJ.

Even in the 4th century Basil the Great wrote the Hexemeron essay on the six day creation in Genesis and stressed that something like a day could be a metaphor for an eon, since the psalms say that “for God, one day is a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day.” The early century Greek theologians were hardly fundamentalists who took each verse at its literal meaning. At least the Ratzinger was willing to tip his hat to the geneticists and entertain the possibility that they may be on to something. People who insist the Earth is 6000 years old are utterly silly.

(end of excerpt)

First, consider that the serpent in the garden was described as the wisest or shrewdest of all the creatures. Next, consider how King Solomon prayed for wisdom and God promised Solomon that he would not only be wiser that all who came before him but also wiser than all who came after him. Now consider that Jesus calls John the Baptist the greatest man born of WOMAN (which is gyne but not parthenos/virgin). Finally, Jesus states that “a wiser than a Solomon is in your midst” (presumably himself).

We may conjecture from all this the following.

1.) Solomon IS the wisest human of all times, but Jesus is WISER being theos-anthropos and not simply anthropos (i.e. God-man).

2.) If John the Baptist is the greatest born of a non-virgin (gyne) therefore John’s greatest consists in something OTHER than wisdom (i.e. wisdom is necessary but not sufficient).

3.) Genesis concedes that a non-human, the serpent, might be more crafty or shrewd that all other creatures, including humans.

The Greeks like to cite a verse from Isaiah “unless you BELIEVE you shall not UNDERSTAND” to stress that FAITH comes first as a gift from God who foreknows how each recipient will use a gift (yet such foreknowledge in no way robs anyone of free will). Maximos the Confessor (circa 6th century) states in the Philokalia that (paraphrased) “Faith comes first as a gift and from faith proceeds understanding but only as much as is necessary to be salvific for a recipient.”

Aquinas takes the opposite position in the Summa, namely, that understanding comes first and faith follows from understanding.

Handwriting On the Wall- Weighed & Wanting

diogr49: folks were chatting while you read but i let them be free

diogr49: and I noticed a few Amens

dio mio_2: i am nobody

diogr49: well, BUT, you were reading about a Somebody

dio mio_2: they let me pray the office in the different rooms

dio mio_2: yes

diogr49: but it is not good for me to be a Catholic Nazi

diogr49: ha ha

dio mio_2: its a big time right now fir us catholics

dio mio_2: catholic fascist?

diogr49: you know, strict,

diogr49: chastizing others

dio mio_2: i was chatised right of a big room once

diogr49: God moves whom He will and God is sufficient

dio mio_2: it was my loss

dio mio_2: sounds like st theresa of avila

diogr49: the more judgmental people are the more they seek to hide their own uncertainty

diogr49: in the final analysis, there IS no analysis; all is subjective

dio mio_2: but you dont have rules and norms law and order universal teaching where are you?

diogr49: everything stands or falls in the final I-Thou relationship

diogr49: well, the world is filled with laws as it is filled with transgressors

dio mio_2: the i thou relationship i havent hears that expression for many a year

diogr49: one cannot legislate morality

diogr49: it just popped into my head

diogr49: our minds can be conduits if we become quiet

dio mio_2: my father confessor talked of the i thou relationship

diogr49: like wi-fi routers or hot spots

dio mio_2: he was fransiscan

dio mio_2: whats a conduit socrates?

diogr49: Carl Rogers used an interesting technique, of serving as a MIRROR to the other

dio mio_2: please explain

diogr49: well, we cannot know what conducts us

diogr49: from the good treasury of the good heart the good person brings forth good things

dio mio_2: i see

diogr49: but we are judged by every word

diogr49: and presumably every thought

dio mio_2: it all become a bit much fo r us to bear

dio mio_2: scrupulosity is not good

diogr49: for there is only one “knower of the heart” as Prophet Samuel was informed when he was sent to find king David

diogr49: there is among the Greeks economia and akrivia or exactness

diogr49: so by strictness we do one thing, and by economy we tolerate other things

diogr49: things which deviate from strictness

dio mio_2: yes i suppose so

diogr49: so “If you would be PERFECT then go and do these most difficult things and take up your cross”

dio mio_2: i would not be perfect

diogr49: BUT if you would simply gain eternal life, then at least observe THESE things

dio mio_2: i will try

diogr49: ah, but Jesus said those words to one person, so, they must serve some purpose

diogr49: not to all, but to a few at least

dio mio_2: yes diogr

diogr49: one man wanted to follow the disciples but was gently turned away

diogr49: and the Spirit in Acts forbade preaching in a certain region during that season of time

diogr49: the sheep know their masters voice, but as the Greeks say, we are LOGIKA PROBATA (logical sheep) so we must listen and discern.. for faith comes by hearing (listening) and hearing by the Word

diogr49: and we pray that bishops RIGHTLY DIVIDE or interpret the word

dio mio_2: are you copying this from a book?

diogr49: but, we are all vessels of clay

diogr49: no, i speak from my thoughts extemporaneously

dio mio_2: gbu

dio mio_2: but you have so many thoughts

dio mio_2: is not one enough to ponder for a lifetime?

diogr49: if you read “The pilgrim” by an anonymous russian, who says the prayer of the heart, then you notice that the pilgrim internalizes the scriptures until it becomes his nature

diogr49: but you see i am a parrot whose cage has been in some interesting parlors

dio mio_2: ok

diogr49: so, i repeat what i have heard many times

dio mio_2: yes i am nothing but a clever monkey ot parrot myself

diogr49: but, through the alembic of my memory and personality, it is transformed and seems fresh

diogr49: Yeats prefaces all his poems with one line from Augustine

diogr49: Oh thou Beauty most ancient yet most fresh! Far and wide I did seek thee, and all along, Thou was withing

dio mio_2: very good

diogr49: in Euclidian geometry if point A is distance X from point B, then B is equally distance X from point A

diogr49: BUT in spiritual geometry, though we may be distant from the divinity, the divinity yet dwells within us, very near

diogr49: Paul said something like this

dio mio_2: gbu diog

diogr49: the ancient Greek prayer “O Thou who are everywere present and fillest all things COME AND ABIDE with in us”

dio mio_2: thankyu for a wounderful retreat

diogr49: how strange that we beckon that which is every where present to come and dwell within us

diogr49: but, you see, though we journey through many lands far and wide, we call only one place home

dio mio_2: i wish i had had time and no fear so i could have read and thought too

diogr49: so when the two apostles followed Jesus, and he showed them where he dwelled, the were quite amazed

diogr49: but why should they be amazed by a simple bed and table and chair

dio mio_2: i wish i had been to school

diogr49: but when Solomon completed the temple, he said “how can God, whom the universe cannot contain, dwell in this small temple

diogr49: Faith is a gift, given to each of us, as much as is necessary for the individual who has GIFTS DIFFERING… and from faith proceeds understanding, but only as much understanding as is necessary to be salvific

dio mio_2: yes diog

diogr49: but you see, this is not me speaking, but centuries of tradition

diogr49: which i have simply internalized

dio mio_2: it is you speaking

diogr49: birds sing, but it is not their song they sing

diogr49: well, yes, it is words on a screen

diogr49: words are sounds

diogr49: simply sounds

dio mio_2: its effort and heart

dio mio_2: its a will to share

dio mio_2: its self realisation

dio mio_2: actualisation

diogr49: habits can be our best friends or our worst enemies

diogr49: exactly

dio mio_2: its evnegism

dio mio_2: evangelism

diogr49: we choose through our free will

diogr49: nothing may happen without the individuals freewill consent

dio mio_2: one must be able to have a freewill

dio mio_2: that is not always possible

diogr49: Kierkegaard pointed out that it was Abrahams will to choose to empower the voice he heard as Gods voice and not some idle imagining

dio mio_2: maybe he was right

diogr49: Samuel as a youth heard a voice, but only when instructed by that elderly high priest did Samuel understand how to respond to that voice

diogr49: Eli, i forgot the high priests name for a moment

dio mio_2: without knowledge we are nothing

dio mio_2: or at least less tha n it

diogr49: Samuel was consecrated as a prophet before his conception, when Hanna his mother was praying

diogr49: and Samuel was sent to rebuke and reform the wayward sons of Eli

diogr49: and yet, aged Eli, failing in eyesight, was the vessel which preserved the tradition to guide young Prophet Samuel, now to respond to God’s voice

diogr49: so, in that very drama we see the problem and the solution

dio mio_2: whats the time with you there diogr?

diogr49: the problem is our fallen earthen nature, yet we are vessels which transmit the solution to all future ages in the form of tradition

dio mio_2: would you pray the divine office with me?

dio mio_2: evening prayer?

dio mio_2: we could take it in turns

dio mio_2: each reading a psalm or canticle

diogr49: how would i bring up the text

dio mio_2: universalis.com

diogr49: yes i have mic, please give me link to reading

dio mio_2: vespers

diogr49: and instruct me when to read

dio mio_2: http://universalis.com/vespers.htm

diogr49: i was thinking of that verse, 2 or 3

dio mio_2: which was that dio?

diogr49: wherever 2 or 3 are gathered together

dio mio_2: you are something of a thinker which i am not!

diogr49: that is why 3 bishops are ideal to consecrate a new bishop, by akrivia exactness, but 2 are sufficient by economia

dio mio_2: ys that happens

diogr49: among the greeks and russian

dio mio_2: the greek and russian orthodox churches frighten me

dio mio_2: the universal does not

diogr49: what we do not know or understand frightens us

diogr49: we are frightened by the unknown

dio mio_2: yes true

dio mio_2: yes and by our own sin too

diogr49: and when we know all ways then we are at home and at peace with the world

diogr49: the truth is one, but the paths to it are many

dio mio_2: its most terrible to contemplate that our father in heaven saw us think and do our evil

dio mio_2: he was watching us

dio mio_2: that frightens me

diogr49: well, consider what it means to “hunger and thirst after righteousness”

dio mio_2: but e is ever merciful and loving

diogr49: normally we thirst long before we hunger

diogr49: yet, the bread is first, and THEN the wine

diogr49: only when flesh is pierced does blood flow

diogr49: and throughout the old and new testament, the phrase hunger and thirst appears NINE times

dio mio_2: ok

diogr49: but nine is a unique number, 2 times 9 is 18 but 8 plus 1 is nine

diogr49: 3 times 9 is 27 but seven plus 2 = 9

diogr49: so, 9 is like God… it mingles through the universe yet remains unchanged, untainted

dio mio_2: ok

diogr49: 9 is like God become man so that, as 4th cent. Athanasius said, man might become as God

diogr49: which is the divinization of mankind

diogr49: which is a Greek theme of the Christians of the first several centuries

diogr49: i was in a russian monastery and then a greek monastery in the 1970s

billy_b0777: dedication

diogr49: i was a novice for 13 months in the greek athonite monastery in brookline mass.

diogr49: nice

diogr49: may I have the link to Chrysostom’s homily, please

Reading From the Catecheses by Saint John Chrysostom, bishop
The power of Christ’s blood
If we wish to understand the power of Christ’s blood, we should go back to the ancient account of its prefiguration in Egypt. “Sacrifice a lamb without blemish,” commanded Moses, “and sprinkle its blood on your doors.” If we were to ask him what he meant, and how the blood of an irrational beast could possibly save men endowed with reason, his answer would be that the saving power lies not in the blood itself, but in the fact that it is a sign of the Lord’s blood. In those days, when the destroying angel saw the blood on the doors he did not dare to enter, so how much less will the devil approach now when he sees, not that figurative blood on the doors, but the true blood on the lips of believers, the doors of the temple of Christ.
If you desire further proof of the power of this blood, remember where it came from, how it ran down from the cross, flowing from the Master’s side. The gospel records that when Christ was dead, but still hung on the cross, a soldier came and pierced his side with a lance and immediately there poured out water and blood. Now the water was a symbol of baptism and the blood, of the holy Eucharist. The soldier pierced the Lord’s side, he breached the wall of the sacred temple, and I have found the treasure and made it my own. So also with the lamb: the Jews sacrificed the victim and I have been saved by it.
“There flowed from his side water and blood.” Beloved, do not pass over this mystery without thought; it has yet another hidden meaning, which I will explain to you. I said that water and blood symbolised baptism and the holy Eucharist. From these two sacraments the Church is born: from baptism, “the cleansing water that gives rebirth and renewal through the Holy Spirit,” and from the holy Eucharist. Since the symbols of baptism and the Eucharist flowed from his side, it was from his side that Christ fashioned the Church, as he had fashioned Eve from the side of Adam Moses gives a hint of this when he tells the story of the first man and makes him exclaim: “Bone from my bones and flesh from my flesh!” As God then took a rib from Adam’s side to fashion a woman, so Christ has given us blood and water from his side to fashion the Church. God took the rib when Adam was in a deep sleep, and in the same way Christ gave us the blood and the water after his own death.
Do you understand, then, how Christ has united his bride to himself and what food he gives us all to eat? By one and the same food we are both brought into being and nourished. As a woman nourishes her child with her own blood and milk, so does Christ unceasingly nourish with his own blood those to whom he himself has given life.
(end of homily)

diogr49: i just now realized

diogr49: Adam slept during creation of Eve

diogr49: Abraham was in trance before God came with vision

diogr49: and the apostles slept in Gethsemane while Christ worked part of the salvation

diogr49: so, three sleepings

dio mio_2: http://universalis.com/readings.htm

diogr49: and three marriages

diogr49: marriage of male and female

diogr49: marriage of God and chosen people

diogr49: Marriage of Christ and Church

dio mio_2: wow diogr

diogr49: interesting

dio mio_2: you are very thoughtful

dio mio_2: very good

Alert: fitzy5729 reddotted by: diogr49

diogr49: i suspect bad intentions

diogr49: in that fellow

diogr49: he wants to bait us

dio mio_2: we are all sinners

diogr49: and Paul says not to fall to vain disputation

dio mio_2: i am the worst here

diogr49: if he has internet, he can easily seek meanings

billy_b0777: well dont take bite

diogr49: so, he lies,

dio mio_2: good billy!

diogr49: i knows perfectly well how HE wants to understand it

billy_b0777: yep

dio mio_2: hi billy

diogr49: i might be a fool but i aint born yesterday

billy_b0777: now that is funny

dio mio_2: i continually get it all wrong

diogr49: the russians always have “fools for Christ” but this is rare among greeks

billy_b0777: who ???

diogr49: a fool for Christ is someone who crucifies themselves with foolishness for Christs sake

billy_b0777: please

diogr49: whenever one visits Russian monasteries, one will often see someone who is child like and cared for by monastery

diogr49: seemingly devoid of adult reason

diogr49: if you google on RUSSIAN “FOOL FOR CHRIST” you will find much

diogr49: i am sure

dio mio_2: i am staying with Rome and the west DIO

dio mio_2: gbu

diogr49: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foolishness_for_Christ

billy_b0777: good

diogr49: i have spent my life studying all world religions

dio mio_2: i have wasted my life

diogr49: but, even in waste, we spend

diogr49: we expend

dio mio_2: i am a beggar for gods help and mercy

dio mio_2: thats all i am really

dio mio_2: i am not much good to anyone

billy_b0777: good thing to me

diogr49: there is a story about a man in a flood, who climbed upon the roof and prayed for God’s help

diogr49: a boat came by, and offered him help but he said “i will wait for God”

diogr49: then a helicopter came, and offered him help, and he said I will wait for God

dio mio_2: yes thats a good story

diogr49: he finally died and came to heaven, and saw God and said, Why didnt you help me

diogr49: God said “I sent you a boat and a helicopter”

dio mio_2: poor me!

diogr49: we must be able to discern the help

diogr49: we may lead a horse to water but cannot force the horse to drink

dio mio_2: yes diogr

diogr49: Rumi said “seek THIRST for without thirst, water is of no value”

diogr49: so, i can say to you SEEK THIRST, but you must decide for yourself what is pure water, and what is muddy water

dio mio_2: diogr has been saying some great things

diogr49: pure water is never drawn from a broken cistern

diogr49: or well

diogr49: the early Greek bishops called a misguided pastor a broken cistern

diogr49: consider the 5 wise virgins and the 5 foolish

diogr49: they were ALL VIRGINS, all pure… purity is necessary but not sufficient

dio mio_2: we all live with that today

diogr49: the foolish lacked OIL, which in Greek is a pun on charity, works

catfishjim2000: were in the book that tell you diogr?

diogr49: oh, the Greeks have spoken of all this for centuries

catfishjim2000: as l have not come across it

dio mio_2: amazing diogr

catfishjim2000: have not

diogr49: in the Greek monasteries, these are old logs to the lumberjacks

dio mio_2: james diogr has lived in monesteries

diogr49: well, you might read the Philokalia

diogr49: the philokalia was composed by 70 authors from 3rd century to 11th century

catfishjim2000: l be too monesteries

diogr49: but the bulk is written by Maximos the Confessor

catfishjim2000: for a day

dio mio_2: i visited too james

diogr49: aha, but orthodox monasteries are a different world

dio mio_2: benedictine

dio mio_2: how so diogr?

catfishjim2000: its was very cold up there

diogr49: well, you must read the philokalia to begin to understand

catfishjim2000: l went in the december

diogr49: just as Protestants refuse to read the Apocrypha, and then complain that they do not understand

dio mio_2: i cant read with respect to you diogr

diogr49: Isaiah said “unless you believe, you shall not understand”

dio mio_2: i dont refuse its a matter of physcology problems

diogr49: i guarantee you that Chrysostom would drink from the well of the Philokalia

dio mio_2: i believe you

diogr49: and the monastics over the centuries drank from the well of Chrysostome

diogr49: i do not offer you poison

diogr49: but only you can take the medicine

diogr49: i would suggest to anyone that they acquire Jaroslav Pelikan’s 5 volume paperback history of development of Christian Doctrine

diogr49: he was a Yale Sterling professor of History

diogr49: he is quite readable for the layperson, and quite unbiased

diogr49: i mean, no hidden agendas

dio mio_2: i am staying with our bishop diogr lol

dio mio_2: i am a simple fool

catfishjim2000: well we be to church today

diogr49: i guarantee you that Pope Benedict has read all such things

diogr49: as well as Hans Kung

diogr49: but the choice will always be yours

dio mio_2: i dont want to get confused its all far too much for my tiny mind to imagine

catfishjim2000: ok

dio mio_2: i am in WALES

diogr49: my wife now gives me chores to do

diogr49: i will stay logged in

dio mio_2: diogr are you eastern orthodox

diogr49: i was Greek Orthodox for 20 years, and afraid of Catholicism, i looked at Hans Kungs books like vampire sees a cross

diogr49: you are a good man, and good men are hard to find

diogr49: maraming salamat po

dio mio_2: diogr49 do you go to a church now?

diogr49: as Gen Douglas McArthur said “I shall return”

diogr49: i thought i was just in church with you, n’est pas?

diogr49: you and i are the church for a moment, no?

dio mio_2: diogr stop avoiding my question

diogr49: if the church is not you and i just now,… then where is it

diogr49: pride is a great enemy

dio mio_2: you are being devious

diogr49: and now, again, fear

dio mio_2: i am disapointed

diogr49: you desire disappointment… and we find what we seek

dio mio_2: its been great being with you diogr

dio mio_2: gbu

diogr49: the saint can see saintliness even in the worst sinner, but a sinner sees sinfulness even in the holiest of saints

dio mio_2: i am not looking for either in you

diogr49: you are trying to convince yourself

dio mio_2: i was only wondering if you were roman catholic

diogr49: because you are uncertain and afraid, that is my conjecture

dio mio_2: i am bt not concerning you

diogr49: but only you can know what is in your own heart, and it is not for me to inquire or understand

dio mio_2: ok

dio mio_2: lol

diogr49: you are so close, yet so far

dio mio_2: ok

diogr49: one never sees a smiling icon

dio mio_2: nice to meet you

dio mio_2:

dio mio_2: catfish why are you going to work in hpspital

diogr49: i speak of spiritual distance, not geometric

diogr49: the famous “handwriting on the wall” (mene mene shekel uparsin) “you have been weighed and found wanting”

dio mio_2: you are very knowledgeable and respectable diogr49

diogr49: but no one could understand until Daniel interpreted

diogr49: if i remember

diogr49: the handwriting was metaphorical, not literal

diogr49: Chrysostom was metaphorical, but modern denominations are literal

dio mio_2: mene mene shekel uparsin

diogr49: Bible based… but the first epistle was only written in 55ad, and the Gospels were not completed until 100ad

diogr49: so, where was the Bible based church for 30 years

diogr49: few people consider that

dio mio_2: in the memory

diogr49: tradition produces scripture, scripture does not produce tradition

Capitalizing the G in God

William

this is my first day getting ubuntu to run on a 250gig old tower machine with wifi

took me literally 40 hours of experimenting cause documentation is poor and installation programs are not intuitively obvious

5:33am

Nyc
Linux is for Enterprise, not entertainment
more stable than windows
when I worked at FriendFinder it was a 24/7 shop and it took over 3 months before I saw a box crash
at least they finally adopted a GUI for installing programs, not too many years back it was all done via the Command Line

6:19am
William
just now i succeeded in getting into paltalk in ubuntu with foxpro, and it supports mic and headphones
i couldt do that with Wubi Ubuntu intalled on WIndows
but this is a pure Ubuntu system

6:21am
Nyc
wanna field test VivaVox on Ubuntu?

6:25am William
hmmm…. interesting…. i wonder what or IF it will install on my ubuntu
Kamal would know
good questions
try to invite me, and we will see

6:26am William
its installing now
vivox is not compatible with my build of firefox
thats the message i got

6:28am Nyc
bummer, Kamal needs to know that

6:31am William
i just tried to message him and firefox crashed
it restored this session

6:31am Nyc
oops

6:31am William
but you know, i updated TODAY an hour ago
so, i must have the latest firefox ubuntu build

6:31am Nyc
try a complete restart

6:32am William
good idea… i just sent Kamal the message

6:36am William
i just reloaded firefox, but still no install, and this time i got valuable info about the linux build

Linux-x86-gcc3
so i need to tell Kamal

6:37am William
you know, everything is so much faster in this ubuntu
i am amazed
i think windows has too much overhead with antivirus firewalls etc
of course, i never could get one single person to try out vivox with me under windows
so, i dont think I will cry too hard

6:51am Nyc
I’m running Snow Leopard, Ubuntu and xp on this box, with has 2 quad cores running at 2.66 and 16 gigs of DDR3 RAM, so overhead isn’t a problem

6:58am William
I had a LONG talk in that EMPATHY chat client with my long time friend who is a doctor in Tehran
and it is SUPER FAST
cause I was also chatting with a woman in nyc, and a long time friend in Singapore

7:00am Nyc
was in Berlin last week for the Last Hurrah of the West

7:00am William
oh right
pbs is showing some documentary about how the Beatles helped to defeat the Soviet Union

7:01am Nyc
google ‘Plastic People Of the Universe’ + Hungary

7:01am William
this is so fast and it is only WIFI
I couldnt get ethernet to work

7:02am Nyc
The Velvet Underground had more to do with the collapse than the Beatles

7:02am William
but cabled Ethernet is supposed to be faster than wifi

7:02am Nyc
I used to be able to buy Lennon’s ‘Imagine’ in the DDR’s hard currency Intershops as a child
on vinyl. The State allowed it because it was in keeping with their Principles

7:04amWilliam
Socrates and Jesus died over principles. Principles can be rather toxic at times.
Im so clever I scare myself sometimes, ha ha

7:05amNyc
I’ve always believed that both those characters are fictional products of Plato’s Academy
sucker existed for 900 years after Plato’s death

7:06amWilliam
I spend a lot of time in Paltalk Catholic chat, because the average age is 50, so it is some companionship
but some of the people really irritate me
but its better than the other chat rooms

7:07amNyc
no doubt

7:07amWilliam
but this one guy gives everyone a hard time if they do not capitalize the g in God
so I lectured him that he will go to hell for missing the message of the Gospel
I said that in ancient hebrew and greek there was NO LOWER CASE
lower case was a recent innovation

7:08amNyc
logic doesn’t enter into it with the indoctrinated

7:08amWilliam
so i said he would be in the crowd who says “Lord Lord I worked miracles in your name
and Jesus said “go away I never knew you
I told him that he misses the entire point of the Gospels which is HUMILITY
i said that’s why Jesus washed everyone’s feet
he said he just wants to show God respect
I said that he is a control freak who judges others
ha ha, he had a hard time dealing with what i had to say

7:10amNyc
Have you read ‘Jesus Is A Jerk’ ?

7:10amWilliam
then this other goody two shoes preacher type started to say to me “… my friend”
so i told him that i NEVER trust anyone who uses that phrase “…my friend”
and i don’t
i said that in life friends are few and far between, and don’t need to be told “my friend”

all the Paki Muslims that argue with me always, without fail, say “my friend” and “my dear”

I told the preacher guy why i despise all the radio and tv ministers
the fact is that all this “personal relationship with Jesus” is an innovation of the 20th century

7:12amNyc
all the hot dog vendors in NYC say ‘my friend’

7:12amWilliam
because in the 19th century in America, in the 1st and 2nd GREAT AWAKENINGS of the revivalists
the most famous sermon was ‘in the hands of an angry God‘
and it was all Calvinism
Jesus wasnt your “buddy pal”

7:13amNyc
found it: http://godisimaginary.com/i39.htm
have you seen ‘Dogma’ ?

7:13amWilliam
even Jesus said “you are my friends IF you do as I say”

7:14amNyc
The ‘Buddy Jesus’ plays a role in that movie

7:14amWilliam
there is no place really in the bible which says “yes, Jesus loves me”
like that old song “the bible tells me so”

I searched long and hard, and there is only ONE passage in one gospel that vaguely substantiates Jesus loving someone

and i know a protestant would rebuttal with “greater love hath no man than to give his live”

well, stop and think about heros like Patrick Henry

7:15amNyc
The Buddy Jesus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BEZaPN8gUY

7:15amWilliam
or posthumous Congressional Medal of Honor winners

7:16amNyc
I met a direct descendant of Nathan Hale in DC

7:16amWilliam
yes, they have great love, to give their life for their country, but they do not have a PERSONAL relationship with those for whom they sacrifice

If I gave up my life tomorrow to help the suffering people in some African nation… it is an IMPERSONAL act

7:17amNyc
hmm

7:17amWilliam
and the whole Protestant reformation twists the rhetoric to argue that we are SAVED from our just punishment by our lipservice faith
yet, the epistle of James (which Luther HATED) says, “the devils believe, and tremble”

So, obviously demons had faith and knew who and what Christ was, but that didnt save them

7:19amNyc
The Koine New Testament was the Fox News of its day

7:19amWilliam
and the most christian person of the 20th century was Gandhi, who rejected Christianity as his personal religion

an Athenian in highschool today has an easier time understanding Xenophons greek than Koine greek

and in the gospels where is says jesus took the bread and broke it…

the word is “artos EKLASE”

Which was the koine for break KLASO

but in modern Greek it means HE FARTED

LIKE broke wind

same root

and britches is related to BREECH of a gun, and the root means NOISE

i.e. fart

so, the peasants in church when the gospel is read in koine greek, they cant understand it

7:21amNyc
huh

7:21amWilliam
so, the priest in the sermon usually gives an elaborate explanation
well, a greek priest came to our monastery, and gave a sermon like that, and afterwards, apologized
because he forgot that we all knew koine greek
he was used to the villagers who needed a synopsis recap

7:22amNyc
whoa
what are the odds of a congregation being fluent in koine in the 20th century?

7:23amWilliam
well, unless they studied like we did, they wont know
when i recite church slavonic to russian speakers, they cant understand a word
only people who STUDY church slavonic understand it, even if the speak a modern slavic language

i mean, if you read the entire Philokalia, which was written by 70 authors between 300 ad and 1100ad
you will not see a single HINT of protestant piety

7:25amNyc
kalia?

7:25amWilliam
Philokalia

7:25amNyc
Kalia means?

7:25amWilliam
is a collection of writings for monastic life on Mt. Athos

Kalia means wholesomeness

7:26amNyc
got it

7:26amWilliam
in modern greek “kalos kagathos” means a fine gentleman
fine and dandy
but, it is honorific, not pejorative

7:26amNyc
great song

7:26amWilliam
kalos kai agathos
a contraction to ka’gathos
so philo-sophia is contrasted with philo-kalia

like Paul, on that hill of mars…
the greeks seek after some new idea

7:27amNyc

7:27amWilliam
that sort of thing

7:37amWilliam
hope i didnt gross you out with all the theology
but, that is my lifelong thing, comparative religions
so, when you look at someone like Hans Kung
his mental feat was like climbing mt everest
so, after years of study, he is at the top, and he gets this panoramic view

So, he shouts down to everyone on the ground what he sees
EXCEPT, they cant understand, unless and until THEY climb a mt everest

7:39amNyc
right you’ve mentioned that before

7:39amWilliam
and they cant really hear what he is really saying up there,k because of the distnace,

7:39amNyc
i deal with that everyday

7:40amWilliam
so they dont even know WHAT he is saying, much less WHY

William
same with Kurt Godel’s indefiniteness proof
very few know OF it and its import
but only a handful are cabaple of FOLLOWING IT
and they say that IF You can follow it, it is like an ecstatic revelation
king of like mastering Euclids final theorem where he inscribes all the perfect solids in a sphere
except 1000 times more difficult
which MEANS that most of us take such things on FAITH
LIKE relativity quantum heisenbergs uncertaintity, schroedingers cat
or dna, quarks muons, even atoms

7:52amNyc
65% of all humans alive lack the ability for abstract thought

7:52amWilliam
just like Karl Popper says… we CANNOT Know that every atom of copper in the universe conducts electricity, because we cannot TEST every atom of copper

7:53amNyc
that’s been true for our entire history that we’ve skittered about on the face of the Earth

7:53amWilliam

and much to the chagrin of Noam Chomsky, there is a tribe of 500 in the Brazilian rain forest who speak a language that has no RECURSION

and Chomsky’s big theory is that every language is recursive

So when I say, “yesterday, I saw a man walking down the road wearing a red hat” that is a recursive linguistic structure

The Pidaha tribe (pronounced Piranha) would say “last day. man walking. walking road. has hat. hat like blood
and they dont have words for colors like red
or numbers the way we understand number

William
Cool stuff
but only cool to the really cool few, sadly

I wish I could die on a cross so that all future generations would enjoy such realizations, and i would do it out of LOVE, but not personal individual love, as in a “personal relationship”, but an abstract kind of love.

William

Would you be offended if i posted an edited version of this chat in my facebook notes.. just curious to see what some of the catholics say.

its cools stuff
that only comes out during discourse

8:05amNyc
sure, i was thinking the same thing

8:05amWilliam
great, and i am editing out the parts where you admit to masturbating and picking your nose
ha ha , just kidding

8:06amNyc
leave those in, they’re key

8:06amWilliam
imagine having lunch with ratzinger and kung, and your first question is “have you ever masturbated or picked your nose”
i know everone picks their nose
i am not certain about the universality of masturbation

8:08amWilliam
and Sartre points out that it is utterly impossible to pick your nose AND masturbate simultaneously with the same hand, UNLESS your dick fits in your nostril, in which case it is so small as to be a mere pecadillo

8:09amNyc
i had an encounter at the EPA Building in DC where a guard pointed out the cameras in an attempt to intimidate me, so I faced the cam picked my nose and ate the booger

8:09amWilliam
you do realize that just now i reached a height which surpasses even Seinfeld and Family guy. This may be my apotheosis

8:13amNyc

thanks for the reminder
downloading the Seinfeld reunion on Curb Your Enthusiasm right now

8:17amWilliam

I figure mortality and discord are two survival traits of our species
in theory an individual could be immoratl,… but then the species would not be flexible, to adapt to changing circumstances
and, if we all saw things the same way and agreed, then, there would be no diversity,
you would not have some desert dwellers, some mount dwellers, some sea-farers, some rain forest people
we would not have spread out to occupy diverse ecological niches
our survival trait means we will always be divided on key issues
so, if we used weapons of mass destruction to eleminate all our ideological enemies… why in a few generations,
more sectarian and partisan divisions would arrise

8:22amNyc
there have already been 5 extinctions in Earth’s history. I fail to see what makes humans more specialer than any other species

The REAL sin of Victoria Osteen

I have on my bookshelves here, selected writings of Martin Luther and John Calvin, two founders and architects of the Protestant Reformation. I have not looked at these books in a few years now, but, as I recall, when one does read through them, one does not find very much emphasis on Jesus as a friend and personal savior. Various historians of religion point out that prior to the 19th century, Jesus was seen as playing a key role in the plan of salvation, perhaps in the sense of substitutional atonement, but the modern day emphasis on Jesus as a friend and “personal savior”, is only something that evolved in the past 200 years. I have read extensively in early Nicean writings, the Philokalia, and Aquinas’ Summa, and I can say that those writings also mention little of this present day notion of Jesus as friend and savior.

I realize that many people have been able to turn their lives around through religious faith, and escape the bondage of alcoholism, drugs, promiscuity, gambling, and a host of other evils. Some find their salvation in such things as 12 step programs, which simply refer to “a higher power”.

Our sitting president, George W. Bush, came to my mind today. I thought about the many who have walked into a store front church, and found their commitment to faith and sobriety through some ordinary pastor’s preaching. George W. Bush had to take a walk along the beach with the very Billy Graham himself, in order to snap out of his alcohol dependency. But then, George Bush is a very special person, so, he needs a very special pastor to convert him.

Gandhi once explained to someone, who had inquired concerning Gandhi’s religious beliefs, saying “My religious beliefs are a very personal thing, between myself and God.” I felt Gandhi was very wise to give such an answer. I agree with Gandhi.

But modern America can hardly relate to such an attitude. One cannot run for Presidency without standing up at a podium and explaining, in some fashion or other, how they have accepted Jesus as their “personal savior”. I often marvel that many and various religions have evolved into the commonality of one person, standing at a podium, with some open book, haranguing a crowd of spectators. Why should so many different religions amount to simply that? Why is faith and worship a public, objective and not a private,subjective matter?

I have often wondered whatever it might mean to say “Impersonal savior.” I suppose one things of the Hindu impersonal Brahman. Yet preachers seem obsessed with the term “PERSONAL savior.”

Last Sunday, I tuned in to Joel Osteen’s sermon. I swear, he must have used the term “anointed” several dozen times. It is a catchy word. The likes of Aaron and David were “anointed”. There is a Psalm which mentions the oil of anointment running down the beard. I suppose I could use one of the many Biblical search engines, and find all references in scripture to “anointed”. I rather imagine that the word “anointed” occurs far more times in Osteen’s writings than it does in the Bible.

My thoughts on all these matters tend to align more closely with Steinbeck’s idea in the novel “East of Eden”. Steinbeck is an unabashed Pelagian. Pelagius debated with Augustine, and lost the argument as far as the West was concerned. Pelagius believe that each human being was naturally endowed with everything that is necessary to make the freewill choice to be good. Were this not so, then why would Jesus tell the adulteress to “go and sin no more.” Anyway, Augustine argued that human nature was helpless and hopeless, and only divine grace could accomplish, not reform or transformation, but simply, forgiveness.

There is one passage where one of Steinbeck’s characters speaks of a person as being “like a white shirt, that has become soiled, but through much washing and scrubbing (freewill action and choice), it can become white again.” Elsewhere a character in “East of Eden” says, “a man can take the Bible and MAKE of it something mighty fine within himself.”

Let’s take the recent example in the news of Joel Osteen’s wife, and the incident on the airplane. She lives day in and day out with pastor Joel, and must surely said those “magic words” which cause a person to be “born again.” Now, the real sin on that airplane, was not whether Mrs. Osteen assaulted a stewardess. The real sin was that she was proud, and complained about a spill on her chair. The emphasis in Eastern Orthodox Christianity is to be humble, and long-suffering, a servant to all. The monastics of the Egyptian desert would jump at the chance to be humble, and clean up the spill themselves, or take the blame for another. Jesus said the same thing, regarding he who is servant to all, and takes the lowest place, shall be exalted.

- Originally posted Saturday, September 27, 2008